Curse

Oni No Arashi · May 25, 2005, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Odd Sock

That's exactly it, you've been to HoH a few times. My guild and I have held the HoH many times and you know why ? because we all created characters that had the proper items unlocked. We never brought players that didn't have proper items and certainly no elementalists that didn't have superior runes. You want an example of how holding the HoH is done right ? Try holding it for 28 consecutive and getting kicked out twice because after 6 games of fighting with 7 people we got kicked out by a group composed of nO and ClG players. You shouldn't be proud of having reached it a few times, you should be proud of holding it many times.

Good items, runes and skills are not crutches but a necessity when you reach top PvP. It gets even more critical when you reach the top of the ladder. If my axe has a +20% enchant duration that means my JI will be up a few more seconds dealing a +10DPS (if not more) for a few more seconds. If my Air Magic is at 16 then my orbs will deal 137 not a puny 80something damage. See how it works ? Oh and BTW elites are just that good, you also need them to make a decent strategy. When you get serious about PvP then you can start talking. Furthermore you're wasting your time with that E/R since the R/E you made already has unlocked all the skills the E/R will. Way to grind buddy, goes to show a PvEer can't understand what grind is.

Also to Mav, perhaps you should report those hate PM's to a mod

I know all too well what gaming "Grind" is... repeating the same stuff over and over again. I think it's the PVP 'nay sayers' who don't know what Grind is. Grind is FORCED upon you. FORCED... No one is saying that you HAVE to have the superior runes or the elite skills.... They are crutches provided for those who can't learn the real meaning of strategy.

I have been to the HoH, on personally noted AVERAGE stuff by YOUR standards. Thus making the NEED to "grind" based on most of these whiners who HAVE to have the biggest and baddest "BFG's" the game has to offer, thinking that's all that will get them through.

Personally with my 80 point orbs, if I go in and beat the person who can deliver the 130ish point orbs right back at me, I see it as a bigger accomplishment and a higher testement to my personal skill at 1) playing the game, 2) working with my team to come up with a winning strategy and 3) doing what others can't seem to do WITHOUT the crutches.

You know, you can take a tank out with a missile, and you can also take a tank out with a pistol. You just have to know HOW to do it, and figure it out. With a missile you might be able to fire and forget, but with the Pistol you're going to have to do it right, and take some chances to get the hatch open.

In the end it's the same result. Guess which one would get the medal in the end for doing so? The one who used the easy way out or the one who had to take real calculated risks to get the job done?

In the end, I've had fun in my PVP match. I die? Fine... go back in. I live... and hold onto the hall for some time... good for me... and I'm doing it with the average gear, no crutches.

And when I do unlock those better items and skills, and incorporate them into my build, I'll use them, but I think I'll appreciate them more too.

NiknudStunod · May 25, 2005, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninna

its not "simply" honest

its his negative opinions at a GuildWars fan-site

his first criticism is false advertising about no grind

and then he goes on to call the game developers Hyprocrites about Casinos

if you want to simply ask about a refund, you dont have to bash the game

that said, nasty private messages are uncalled for

He gives the false advertisement as one of the reasons for the return. This game was advertised as no grind but the reality is if you want to compete you are going to have to grind almost as much as other mmo's. I could put 200 played hours into almost every other mmo and be at top level with great gear. This game was suppose to be a revolution but in reality its the same thing just with a different package.

To those saying to leave this subject alone its been overdone or this is a fan forum you negative posts about the game are unwanted, I say this. I would say 99% of the people that are posting about the grind and similar negative posts are fans who want the game they played in BWE and the game they were promised. The reality is they really are 2 different games.

The day they bring back skill over time spent is the day when I come back and play. If they decide not to then like everyone here has said I will put it on the shelf and move on to something else. Right now I still feel posts and suggestions will help bring the pve and the pvp closer to what it was during bwe so I keep posting.

Keep hope alive

Perishiko ReLLiK · May 25, 2005, 05:46 PM // 17:46

I think the answer is a NO, it's a computer game, and well... after you open any computer game there is a no return policy for nearly ALL stores...

The issue of the ignore function doesnt bother me that much, i just ignore Everyone, even team players, i've found i get alot less pissed at those idiots when i can't hear their useless rambling... when i hear someone state, wtf monk why didnt you heal me!, and they ran away from the group... i always feel inclined to call them a moron, or the such, which in a way, is against the terms of agreement, which i don't want to go against, since i've been banned for something similiar on everquest (I told a kid i would rape him in a duel) and i got sent to talk with a dev in game, and he asked me what i said, so i told him "I told the kid i'd rape him, cause my character was better and he was stealing my kills", then he said "that was wrong"(using some sort of "Big" word, in which he spelled wrong (and used in wrong context)... at that point i knew he was a kid (hence the fact that everquest rewarded kids that wasted alot of their life on the game), and so well... i told the dev that my character would rape him too... and then, my everquest instantly shut down(more proof it was a kid that just got frustrated ^.^), never to be opened again, with a 364(not exagerating) YEAR ban... just incase i live to be 354, they didnt want me playing again then either...

Trading system does need a revamp, and in my little mind, i'm really hoping that they're working on ideas for it right now and it will be out sometime within about a month ^.^ (wishfull thinking)

Ninna · May 25, 2005, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by NiknudStunod

This game was advertised as no grind but the reality is if you want to compete you are going to have to grind almost as much as other mmo's.

Id like to see these advertising quotes of "no grind"

heres what the faq promotes
http://www.guildwars.com/faq/default.html#release

Quote:

Rather than labeling Guild Wars an MMORPG, we prefer to call it a CORPG (Competitive Online Role-Playing Game). Guild Wars was designed from the ground up to create the best possible competitive role-playing experience. Success in Guild Wars is always the result of player skill, not time spent playing or the size of one's guild. As characters progress, they acquire a diverse set of skills and items, enabling them to use new strategies in combat.

this is open for interpretation

and certainly isnt saying -- no grind

HOW you use your skills (with teammates), matters more than time hunting for skills

*advertising sounds correct to me*

gwden · May 25, 2005, 06:15 PM // 18:15

You had a chance to test it before you bought it. At least you're not stuck with some crap like WoW where you have to pay additional fees every month. Maybe upcoming changes will bring something you like and you could play again... for free.

Loviatar · May 25, 2005, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by NiknudStunod

I would say 99% of the people that are posting about the grind and similar negative posts are fans who want the game they played in BWE and the game they were promised. The reality is they really are 2 different games.

the game they were promised?

they were told it was beta
they were told things would change
i think they were even told the unlock all would not be in the retail

THE ONLY REASON THEY WERE UNLOCKED WAS TO GIVE PEOPLE AN IDEA OF WHAT THE FINISHED CHARACTER WOULD RESEMBLE AFTER PLAYING THE GAME

NiknudStunod · May 25, 2005, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

the game they were promised?

they were told it was beta
they were told things would change
i think they were even told the unlock all would not be in the retail

THE ONLY REASON THEY WERE UNLOCKED WAS TO GIVE PEOPLE AN IDEA OF WHAT THE FINISHED CHARACTER WOULD RESEMBLE AFTER PLAYING THE GAME

We were told repeatedly over the bwe that player skill would be more important then time spent and it's simply not true.

Player A is a skillful player but he spent the time to grind away and get the runes and skills he wants.

Player B is a equally skillful player but after accending or simply using a prebuild with none of the more elusive skills and runes.

Player A is on a team with players like himself and player B is also on a team similar to himself

Which player wins more matches. I would say with the major runes and skills team A wins all of the matches. Even though both teams are evenly skilled team A has a sizeable advantage because of spells/skills and runes/weapons unlocked. I would go so far as to say team A can be less skilled and still win a majority of the matches because they simply had more tools.

Kaylynn Of Ascalon · May 25, 2005, 08:19 PM // 20:19

god, 4 days and you are level 20.

I have been playing for 21 days, 181 hours and Im level 20 but no where near ending the game yet. I have been exploring and having fun. sounds to me like you took all the fun out of the game and just rushed through to finish the game. How can you enjoy a game if you don't take the time to actually have fun. four days and you are done. boggles my mind.

Hawkeyes · May 25, 2005, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by NiknudStunod

We were told repeatedly over the bwe that player skill would be more important then time spent and it's simply not true.

Player A is a skillful player but he spent the time to grind away and get the runes and skills he wants.

Player B is a equally skillful player but after accending or simply using a prebuild with none of the more elusive skills and runes.

Player A is on a team with players like himself and player B is also on a team similar to himself

Which player wins more matches. I would say with the major runes and skills team A wins all of the matches. Even though both teams are evenly skilled team A has a sizeable advantage because of spells/skills and runes/weapons unlocked. I would go so far as to say team A can be less skilled and still win a majority of the matches because they simply had more tools.

I don't think player "A" would have the same playing ability skill as "B" would in the first place. I know what you are trying to say but do they really have THAT much of an advantage? I don't think they really do. And Player "A" worked harder to get where he is so he deserves to have a bit of an advantage. I think people are making a bigger deal then it really is. As the old saying goes, you can't please everyone all of the time.

Hawkeyes Ravenloft

Mountain Man · May 25, 2005, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by NiknudStunod

I would say with the major runes and skills team A wins all of the matches. Even though both teams are evenly skilled team A has a sizeable advantage because of spells/skills and runes/weapons unlocked. I would go so far as to say team A can be less skilled and still win a majority of the matches because they simply had more tools.

That's the theory anyway, but are we actually seeing this happen in game?

It's also worth asking, are those players who "grind" to collect all the best skills and gear winning PvP matches because they have more stuff unlocked than their opponents or because they've spent considerably more time honing their skills through hours of play?

Odd Sock · May 25, 2005, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oni No Arashi

I know all too well what gaming "Grind" is... repeating the same stuff over and over again. I think it's the PVP 'nay sayers' who don't know what Grind is. Grind is FORCED upon you. FORCED... No one is saying that you HAVE to have the superior runes or the elite skills.... They are crutches provided for those who can't learn the real meaning of strategy.

I have been to the HoH, on personally noted AVERAGE stuff by YOUR standards. Thus making the NEED to "grind" based on most of these whiners who HAVE to have the biggest and baddest "BFG's" the game has to offer, thinking that's all that will get them through.

Personally with my 80 point orbs, if I go in and beat the person who can deliver the 130ish point orbs right back at me, I see it as a bigger accomplishment and a higher testement to my personal skill at 1) playing the game, 2) working with my team to come up with a winning strategy and 3) doing what others can't seem to do WITHOUT the crutches.

You know, you can take a tank out with a missile, and you can also take a tank out with a pistol. You just have to know HOW to do it, and figure it out. With a missile you might be able to fire and forget, but with the Pistol you're going to have to do it right, and take some chances to get the hatch open.

In the end it's the same result. Guess which one would get the medal in the end for doing so? The one who used the easy way out or the one who had to take real calculated risks to get the job done?

In the end, I've had fun in my PVP match. I die? Fine... go back in. I live... and hold onto the hall for some time... good for me... and I'm doing it with the average gear, no crutches.

And when I do unlock those better items and skills, and incorporate them into my build, I'll use them, but I think I'll appreciate them more too.

See you clearly don't understand what the purpose of superior runes and good item components are. Let's make a friendly GvG match that doesn't count on the ladder, both teams will have the same skills same strategy and it'll be on the warrior isle map where no team has an advantage. Our guild will have all the runes and upgrades while your team will have none. If you really are more skilled and you have goldy tactics you'll beat us. If not then we'll lose and you'll have proven your point. I'll even come here on these forums and post pictures and such if we lose, I give you my word. I'm serious about this too and I'm sure the guild officers and leader will agree to this (PM me and I'll try and convince our guild to do it). You'll see just how 3 skill points will make a difference and how a +20% enchant duration goes a long way. Up till now people have just used vague examples on how items aren't important. Big thing I see is here to try and bring down PvPers is 'it's your choice to use them or not so technically it's not grind'. And it's also my choice to like losing ? No one likes losing thus you need every item you can get your hands on to get that edge. Runes and items are not crutches, they are a necessity and one day you'll learn that. And seriously how many times have you captured and held the HoH ?

As for pistols to destroy tanks... That was the airplane that flew by that did it in Saving Private Ryan (I though it was clear at first glance) Not Tom Hanks with his pistol. C'mon use relevant examples that actually apply not just hypothetical blabber. Why do you think they used bazooka's in WWII ? I'm sure many soldiers destroyed tanks with pistols

Quote:

Originally Posted by chalt2

Yes, yes keep the common sense comming, it's good stuff

Since I've been on these forums you've never brought up a single argument to defend your claims and much of what you say doesn't include common sense. Using single phrase replies to glorify people who defend your opinion doesn't help your cause. And besides if you dislike these forums so much go to a different one such as TGH or GWonline. This reply is not to be intended as flame bait btw.

chpmmttn · May 25, 2005, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mountain Man

That's the theory anyway, but are we actually seeing this happen in game?

It's also worth asking, are those players who "grind" to collect all the best skills and gear winning PvP matches because they have more stuff unlocked than their opponents or because they've spent considerably more time honing their skills through hours of play?

I don't know why someone doesn't just test this. get two guilds. one can be pumped up with the best skills and items they have. the other uses skills and items that you would earn by just playing to 20.

they fight. maybe three times to make sure it is a good result.

then they switch which team has the advantage.

they can use whatever strategies and builds they want as long as one team doesn't use anything 'uber'.

if it is all about what items and skills you have then the team with the best items and skills should win every match (three for each team). if not, then it is not all about items and having all the skills.

Mountain Man · May 25, 2005, 08:48 PM // 20:48

There are times I think the "grind" argument is just some people's way of excusing their PvP losses. "I didn't lose because the other player was better, I lost because he had an unfair advantage!"

NiknudStunod · May 25, 2005, 08:52 PM // 20:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaylynn Of Ascalon

god, 4 days and you are level 20.

I have been playing for 21 days, 181 hours and Im level 20 but no where near ending the game yet. I have been exploring and having fun. sounds to me like you took all the fun out of the game and just rushed through to finish the game. How can you enjoy a game if you don't take the time to actually have fun. four days and you are done. boggles my mind.

I get zero enjoyment from pve thats why I rushed through. I wanted to pvp, it is the reason I bought the game.

Loviatar · May 25, 2005, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mountain Man

There are times I think the "grind" argument is just some people's way of excusing their PvP losses. "I didn't lose because the other player was better, I lost because he had an unfair advantage!"

the one i liked best was the player who said he was very good and the missions were too hard

when i asked him about all of the people who were doing them the first or second time with success his responce was

*most of the players are riding the coattails of other people who have done it many times
they may not even realize they are riding their coattails and so have an unrealistic idea of the difficulty*

NiknudStunod · May 25, 2005, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mountain Man

There are times I think the "grind" argument is just some people's way of excusing their PvP losses. "I didn't lose because the other player was better, I lost because he had an unfair advantage!"

I have hardly pvped since game was released. The reason why is I don't have the build I wanted and I am not going through multiple boss runs for a single skill or grinding hours on end for that elusive rune.

You don't need to get 2 teams together to try and prove it. If 2 teams have the same skill the team with the better equipment is going to win. The extra health, damage and healing will win out in the end.

chalt2 · May 25, 2005, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Odd Sock

. This reply is not to be intended as flame bait btw.

If that wasn't its intent then why even post it?

It was personal and inflamatory, what OTHER possible intent could there have been?

Tyveil · May 25, 2005, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Odd Sock

See you clearly don't understand what the purpose of superior runes and good item components are. Let's make a friendly GvG match that doesn't count on the ladder, both teams will have the same skills same strategy and it'll be on the warrior isle map where no team has an advantage. Our guild will have all the runes and upgrades while your team will have none. If you really are more skilled and you have goldy tactics you'll beat us. If not then we'll lose and you'll have proven your point. I'll even come here on these forums and post pictures and such if we lose, I give you my word. I'm serious about this too and I'm sure the guild officers and leader will agree to this (PM me and I'll try and convince our guild to do it). You'll see just how 3 skill points will make a difference and how a +20% enchant duration goes a long way. Up till now people have just used vague examples on how items aren't important. Big thing I see is here to try and bring down PvPers is 'it's your choice to use them or not so technically it's not grind'. And it's also my choice to like losing ? No one likes losing thus you need every item you can get your hands on to get that edge. Runes and items are not crutches, they are a necessity and one day you'll learn that. And seriously how many times have you captured and held the HoH ?

Look the game model is pretty much just like Magic The Gathering Online. That game is very much about skill (as is guild wars). There is no doubt that somebody who spent $1000 on cards will have the OPPORTUNITY to create a better deck than somebody who has only spent $100, but that is not always the case. Just like MTGO, perhaps GW should have limited "formats". Standard (no elite skills), Unlimited, new formats can be created with each expansion, etc. Then everyone could play the format they enjoy (and have skills unlocked for).

Rellok · May 25, 2005, 09:33 PM // 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mav

- Also I believe ArenaNet are somewhat hypocritical. Now here me out on this one first (and no I'm not running one of these myself nor have I ever been banned ); They've basically at this point said casinos are aganist their Terms of Service cause most casinos rip people off. Guess what, if ya don't want people ripping others off using a casino, don't include a god damn /roll system in the game. Punishing players for using a tool you provide in the game is sad and just makes the company itself look bad. If you've fallen for someone who scammed you out of some money with a casino, too bad. Your fault for falling for it.

Wow, are you sure that a roll command was put into the game so that people could run casinos? Or do you think that something like that is useful for deciding who will be the last member of a group? Maybe in the HOH, one sigil drops and a group wants to roll for it instead of the randomness already built in? There are MANY uses for a roll function other than gambling. I don't think it makes a company look bad if they ban people for ABUSE of the functionality of the game. The downfall of a capitalistic society is absolute greed and selfishness.

When companies send out letters to people asking for money with a promise of something, and then don't deliver, they are commonly dealt with via a class-action lawsuit. If it's not OK in RL, what is the excuse here? And is excusing cheating a good thing? Simply because the internet is percieved as consequence free, doesn't mean that it is.

Matt

Ninna · May 25, 2005, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyveil

the game model is pretty much just like Magic The Gathering Online. That game is very much about skill (as is guild wars). There is no doubt that somebody who spent $1000 on cards will have the OPPORTUNITY to create a better deck than somebody who has only spent $100, but that is not always the case.

great analogy

that was mentioned at E3 too
http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cf...00,49697 2953

Quote:

their goal is to make expansions like a new series of cards in games like Magic the Gathering.

They can be a lot of fun and provide many new options, but you by no means need them to compete.